Brazosland Pistoleros

[AggiePhil]

As someone who has done a lot of shooting but no competition shooting, the "180 degree rule" is confusing me. Can you turn around to move between obstacles as long as the muzzle is pointed down and your finger is off the trigger? After all, muzzle down with the shooter turned around facing rearward is the exact same safe muzzle down as when the shooter is facing forward. You know...position sul?

[Brad Phair]

Hoo Boy! you could not be more wrong. I am sure we can educate you w/ a little coaching, but, statements like that scare me!! The dynamics of large crowds and loaded guns require specific protocol. We have an exceptional safety record in this sport and need to keep it that way. One "Brain Fart" and the baby gets thrown out with the bath water. The good news is you are asking questions. That's how we learn. Contact me @ 979-224-2395 and we can discuss this in detail, and perhaps go to our range and practice some drills.
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I WILL KEEP MY LIBERTY, GUNS, AND MONEY....YOU KEEP THE "CHANGE"

[RED@$$AG]

The LaRue 3 gun match is run with the same frame of mind. No 180 but muzzle down at all times. It's dumb, but according to the great Coker and his minions, thats how you are supposed to do it in a firefight. I saw more than one person's muzzle during the two days. With the 180 rule, you never see muzzle more than once.
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John Cox

Political Correctness Defined-
A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.


Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions...

[AggiePhil]

Thank y'all for explaining how things are done in the Pistoleros. Brad, I watched you RO at the LaRue match and thought you did an excellent job.

[Brad Phair]

Kind words Aggiephil, but You still can't have my Bud Light!
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I WILL KEEP MY LIBERTY, GUNS, AND MONEY....YOU KEEP THE "CHANGE"

[B_Ayers]

I know the feeling, I saw @ least a dozen myself! almost wants you go hide behind a few of the trucks parked out there! LOL!
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The white guys keep jumping in front of my bullets! A slug is the perfect personal supressor.

[Kevin J.]

Different sports have different approaches to basic safety rules.

The 180 is a standard in USPSA (they started it) and IDPA and it is generally carried over into other sports like 3 Gun (which has, at last count, about 5 major sets of rules!).

The basis is that the muzzle should be always pointed Downrange. Notice I didnt say "in safe direction"...downrange may not always be in a "safe" direction...but its a start. Thats why we have other rules about your trigger finger, for example. But for the sake of trying to enforce keeping that muzzle downrange, the 180 was introduced. Up, right, left or down, doesnt matter, as long as you dont cross out of that hemisphere with your muzzle.

So does that mean you are safe? No. Last I checked, my feet are in the 180. But there is a rule for that too! Any part of your body that crosses in front of the muzzle will earn you a DQ under the rules. So, even the 180 is not really a 180, if you count your feet!

Now at LaRue...they used the Tactical theory on safety rules. Not bad (well some was bad) but just different. As it concerns the 180, in the real world, there is no 180. Most LE and .mil are trained in what the NRA refers to as the "safety circle". This is a circle with a radius of 3 feet all the way around your body. The idea is that as long as you keep the muzzle indexed into that circle, which is to say pointed strait down, you present as little risk as possible to those around you. Using the safety circle you can pivot 360 degrees to get to your next target. Its still about muzzle discipline, just applied a different way.

But we are playing a game. Not defending Flag, Freedom and Apple Pie, so the 180 is just a "Safer", more easily enforced, standard. But ultimately the only Safety that really matters is between your ears.

Kevin J.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not of your counsel or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands that feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams

[Kevin J.]

I was thinking about the 180 and the Safety Circle and I will add one other thought...

The 180 is a better rule for competitive shooting as we do it, becuase of the "form" used by top shooters.

In competition, you never return to Low Ready during a course of fire. You keep your pistol at eye level and drive it from one target to the next. The physical act of lowering the pistol and then raising it again to reaqiure your sight picture for the next target wastes precious time. As much as a half second a target, which could mean 5-6 seconds on a 15 target stage.

Competitive shooters practice "driving the gun" from one target to the next; looking and seeing the next target or targets through the sights on the pistol. If the 180 was not in place to control the muzzles orientation downrange it would be easy to drive the muzzle in directions it shouldnt go.

This sort of speed technique is incompatible with a Safety Circle doctrine.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not of your counsel or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands that feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams

[AggiePhil]

Excellent posts Kevin. I appreciate you spending the time to write em out. Out of curiosity, are there any competitive types of shooting that DO allow for more "tactical" (hate that word) types of shooting positions such as sul and norte/up, along with 360 degree movement? I know that it might seem crazy to some, but I'd rather not start to build training scars by doing things one way on the square range and another way on the two-way range, if you know what I mean. Thanks again.

[Kevin J.]

Only the NRA LE 3 Gun matches that I am aware of...but even they encourage the 180, but they do not penalize the shooter for reverting to training.

There are lots of LE that shoot our sport who dont feel its an issue, the conflicting styles, they just move muzzle down/up and avoid the 360 degree pivot.

In my opinion (and others that I know and have read like Massad Ayoob), feel the trigger time and other skills developed is worth the slight conflict created by the various rule sets.

But, this is one of the reasons NRA created the LE only competitions, and why I am interested in offering them as well.

K
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not of your counsel or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands that feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams

[RED@$$AG]

In a tactical situation keep your imaginary 180 perpendicular to the direction of the bad guys and/or incoming fire and you'll be fine. If you are surrounded, you are allowed to cease your well disiplined muzzle control and revert to a circle of safety routine if you so choose. However, I dont feel that you would be lowering your muzzle to move with multiple (or just one) line(s) of incoming fire.

In combat, there may be no 180, but there's also no RO to tell you to keep your muzzle below the top of the berm... except when there's a flying clay to shoot at above the berm... or your facing the crowd... or there is no berm... or any other rule you're supposed to remember while the clock is running.

It was all very odd. If you as a shooter, violate the rule and extend the muzzle of your shotgun above the berm more than twice, you're DQ'ed. However, 7.62 rounds can ricochet into the air all day and no one is concerned.

Take a tactical 3 gun shooter to an IPSC match and he'll be DQ'ed. Take an IPSC shooter to a 3 gun match and he'll be safe.


p.s.- I just checked the LaRue rules and this is in there:

2.4 A participant shall be disqualified for allowing the muzzle of his/her firearm to break the 180-degree Safety Plane (except while holstered, drawing or re-holstering.)

Apparently they forgot to read their own rules?

The only mention of muzzle down is as follows:

1.4.1 Rifles & shotguns must be cased or carried slung with the muzzle down if carried by the shooter.

6.2.7 Slings will be required and must support rifle muzzle down.


On another note:

1.5.2 Handguns must be carried with the "Hammer/Striker Down."

When I dropped my hammer upon clearing my weapon after a stage. I was told by the RO that this was the "real world, and we don't do that gamey sh*t here."

It was a general fustercluck. Rant off.
_________________
John Cox

Political Correctness Defined-
A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.


Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions...

[Kevin J.]

The quality of the RO staff at LaRue was disappointing. It makes you appreciate well trained and consistent USPSA RO's.

KMJ
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not of your counsel or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands that feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams

[AggiePhil]

I like the looks of the NRA Tactical Police Competition matches. And there's one coming up in San Antonio in November. Thanks Kevin!